I have turned very sharply away from my own case to highlight all sorts of cases as well as pop culture, etc., in a respectful way. Every once in a while, you'll see me allude to hate mail.
Well - Happy Easter to me! This is not a "poor, pitiful me" posting, but one where I really want people to understand the Internet is a dangerous place and if you are parent, you CANNOT tell if the writer is some pimply 14-year-old with time on his hands or with a stash of guns and something to prove. Warning: tough to read. I received this on Easter morning. Nice, right?
Charles Rico sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.starssurvivors.com/contact.
"I just watched the dateline story about Liz Seccuro. Ur a fucking cunt!!! I hope you get raped again!!! This guy obviously felt very bad about what
he did to you. He went out of his way to apologize for what he did. He
didnt have to do that. The rape could have gone unsolved forever if not
for him trying to make it right. It sounds to me like he had also been
suffering for some time. He was having trouble dealing with something many
college guys would consider normal. He was a victim of his hormones just
like u were of rape. U wanna get mad at someone, get mad at god. This
dude didnt ask to be given hormones he couldnt control yet. Ur the worst
kind of person in the world. When someone reached out to u for forgiveness
u fucked them. U raped him. Good job!!! Now ur a rapist too. U raped
someone at their most vulnerable point. Ur a vengefull BITCH!!! I can
understand wanting vengence on someone who wasnt sorry. But the guy was
actually sorry. He wanted to let u know that and for that he was raped a
hell of alot worse than u were. And dont act like u didnt allow it to
happen. U probably enjoyed it. U know danm well that u were a slut
looking to get fucked that night anyhow. So, FUCK U and FUCK UR MOTHER!!! I hope she's dead. And if she is, I hope she suffered greatly when she
died for making a peice of shit like u. If there's a hell, u should both
be burning in it. Thanks alot u bowlegged whore. U've helped create a
world where someone cant even repent when they know they were wrong. Besides, u should consider urself lucky. Ur too fat & ugly for most guys. Ur an angry jealous fat cow that nobody wants. I wouldnt worry bout rape
anymore. Nobody wants u for anything!!!"
The surf off Main Beach, EH
24 comments:
This made me shudder. It's frightening to me that a person could have so much hatred and anger for someone they've never met. I'm particularly frightened that Charles empathizes so greatly with a rapist. Makes me concerned for the women in his area.
Can I just say, even though it goes without saying, that he is totally wrong? If someone committed murder 20 years ago and then wrote a letter to the victim's family apologizing today - would that make it better? Would that make it less of a crime? What is the difference? I can't see one.
OMG- WTF? I am BEYOND Speechless. And that's unheard of for me.
He is the reason why you do what you do. Stay Strong.
Can you imagine the way he treats his mother, sister, and girlfriend? Take his words with a "grain of salt" because he is obviously in need of treatment.
I don't believe in posting anything to the internet that I wouldn't say to a person's face. CR needs to learn that rule. Quickly.
liz,
as susan r stated, stay strong. don't let psychpaths like this "get" to you.
in viciously lashing out against your mom as well as against you, the distinct impression i get is that he hates women in general, and so, as susan r pointed out, one can only wonder who he treats the women in his life.
MARIO
Jesus. I'm sorry, Liz. Idiots with computers are a dangerous thing. We will never stop being horrified by the cruelty of human beings. And it never gets any easier.
This asshole is probably from Florida.
This person said a lot of over the top things. He was wrong.
Let me preface what I'm about to say with the following: I'm a 40 year old, college educated qhirw male who witnessed a lot of the drug and alcohol fueled parties -- fraternity and otherwise -- during the 1980s. I knew several girls who claimed to have experienced sexual assault during this period. Often, the facts were muddied by romantic interest and heavy drug use before the sexual assault.
But Liz, you did not come across as a good person in the Dateline story. In fact, I felt more empathy for Beebe. At no time did I ever hear you say "regardless of what Beebe did and should pay for, I made a mistake by getting loaded at that party. I was underage and I should have known better".
It is truly sad that 20+ years of introspection have only emboldened you to take no responsibility for anything that happened that night. I don't care about the last 20 years of dumbing down rape. You have done a disservice to rape victims by not making it clearer that Beebe's behavior does not appear to be that of a sociopath or a career rapist. It was a man drunk with fraternity arrogance, drugs and youth. He should pay, but you have a tremendous inability to truly prevent this by focusing not as much on sexual assault, but the endless string of girls willing to open their legs for boys who possess the ultimate aphrodisiac: power and fame.
It is this more than anything which keeps feeding the egos of young men. And you will never stop the Beebes of the world as long as they have plenty of available, easy targets.
Guru:
Thank you for your post. Your opinion is one that many Beebe sympathizers share and I understand the hallmarks that the editing of "Dateline" give to the case in order to sensationalize it. That piece was indeed about Mr. Beebe and not about me, or the system or Universities and how they protect criminals.
I feel I should clarify a great many things, however, I don't have the time or desire. That said, you must understand:
1) I was drugged against my will, not "loaded". Everyone at college in 1984 was served drinks at parties. Did you imbibe alcohol in college? Since I am assuming you were not in the courtroom, "getting loaded" was simply not part of my agenda. Two red cups of beer after dinner over the course of hours does not cover what you are talking about. Being slipped a drugged drink for the purpose of raping someone is where your interest in the story should lie. The legal definition of felony rape includes sexual contact with a person who is not conscious, which, in part, is what happened to me. Clearly, you did not understand the story.
2) Power and fame? Yes, I love being famous for being a rape survivor. I have young children, a lovely career and a happy life - this is not how I wanted to leave my mark, but it is how I am going to make a difference. I don't do rape victims a disservice at all. I bring awareness to a problem that will never go away. Its face changes with technology and the newer drugs, but there is still shame associated with reporting rape (which I did at the time, to no avail).
3) I spent those 20 years living my life with a free and open heart. That an admitted rapist chose to rip open this terrible chapter in my life was not my doing. To those who say "let it go", I had. Happily.
4) Yes, I was an "easy target" - 17, a virgin, an inexperienced drinker, there with a gay date.
That would doubt the women who have told you they were sexually assaulted is sad. That you would imply that somehow such events are "romantic" entanglements is frigtening. Also, the word "aphrodisiac" used in the context of rape is quite inappropriate.
I would also like to know how you know that Beebe has never committed another rape. If so, I would love to have you on our investigative team. That which you see in the media is never what it really seems.
And by the way, you need not qualify yourself by age and educational status. We welcome everyone here.
Guru:
One more thought and please realize I am not being antagonistic in any way - simply fostering a discussion using the logic drawn from your post. I have always wondered if a victim hierarchy exists.
To your points, do it then follow that you blame Natalee Holloway for what is surely her own death?
To Kaitlin:
Thanks for your comment. And yes, it exactly the same if it was a murder, or embezzling $$. It's still a prosecutable crime and I challenge anyone who has walked in my shoes to have done differently.
Crime is crime and that's why we have a legal system. Nothing to do with apologies or AA or any of that. It simply made the story more interesting for a lot of folks. xx
To investmentguru69:
She was SEVENTEEN. Your adult logic does not compare to the logic and planning one has as a 17-year-old college student. How many people do you know who didn't drink while in college? You can be sure that I did, and everyone else that I knew. It's illegal, yes, but the Dateline story wasn't about underage drinking, it was about rape. What point would it have served for her to apologize for drinking? Beer or no beer, he still drugged her, overpowered her, locked her in his room, and raped her. That is also illegal.
Sadly, people like you are the reason sexual assault still isn't getting the attention it deserves. Because you would rather focus and nitpick on the fact that she drank, rather than what rape. And unless you are a rape victim, don't say she is doing a disservice to rape victims. Because there are a lot of them reading this blog right now, and I don't think they agree with you. I think they think that YOU'RE the one doing a disservice by trivializing rape.
What I heard in this man's post (not sure if it's intended or not) was guilt over having raped someone himself. Sounds like a lot of rationalizing egregious behavior. He wants to deny any responsibility by blaming raging hormones. I could see where raging hormones would cause a man to be sexually aggressive, but in the end he still assaulted her. That is a crime, even if he felt helpless in controlling his own behavior.
This man's post is a sad and ugly. I'm sorry you had to receive it. Quintessential vicim blaming.
Melissa R,
It is unclear who you are writing to.
If it is me, then no, I never did rape a woman. There was an incident which reflected the problems of alcohol mixed with hormones. Two girls invited me and my roommate to get toasted with them. We played a game called "I Never..." which involves saying something that you never did. If anyone in the room has done this thing, then that person/persons have to drink. The girls we were playing with would say things intentionally they had done so they would have a reason to drink. Both girls led us to believe they were single (i.e., no boyfriends).
During the game, the girl who seemed to like me would mention outrageous things she'd done to force herself to drink such as being caught by her boyfriend's mom naked handcuffed to a pole. I won't go into all the details but suffice it to say by the end of the night, the girls had been sure to leave lots of red meat out there to let us know they were interested in pursuing things further. We were all pretty toasted. We each took one of the pullout beds in their small dorm room and began to make out. At some point, she gave me the go ahead to move into her underwear. She seemed really into it, then she freaked out. And pushed me off of her. Just like that. There was no rape, just complete confusion. Turns out she was mad at her frat boyfriend for cheating on her so she wanted revenge sex until we got to that point and then she pushed me off of her. I ran out of the room completely confused by what had happened -- not knowing why she had done that. I came back later and apologized. She apologized even more and admitted that she had egged me on.
This story is not that unusual in college. Similar things happened to others. No rape; just a lot of mind games going on. It led to a lot of awkward moments where you would see that person in class or walking in the hallways and sort of not know what to say. That was just the way it was in the weird 80s. As Hunter S. Thompson said, what do you say about a generation which has learned to equate sex with death (i.e., HIV/AIDS)?
So Melissa, if that was the red meat you were looking for, there you go. I never raped a girl, but confusing awkward sexual experimentation, yes. I wish it had never been like that. I wish boys and girls had never used so many substances to be so completely blasted out of their mind that they could claim ignorance the next day.
I also wish I knew what really happened in 1984. Maybe Liz will tell us. Or maybe she won't until the other boys involved come forward. I bet the real tale is a lot more interesting than the one she tells.
Erin,
So if you commit a crime (i.e., underage drinking), you aren't at all responsible for that crime as long as you were raped?
Liz,
I would like to see the entire police report because I honestly do not believe your story. Only two red cups of beer consumed over an entire evening during a time when date rape drugs were not common.
Your statement that you enjoy being famous for being raped sounded initially like a joke until I read the rest and decided you were serious. You come across not as a genuine victim, but as an attention sponge.
Finally, you suggest Beebe might be a serial offender. Do you have any evidence of your subtle claim? Or was that just innuendo to further slime Beebe's name? It's interesting that he would admit to this one case of date rape 20 years ago but by all media accounts has cleaned up his life. If he'd committed other assaults while in college or elsewhere, you'd think he wouldn't have talked at all. The selectiveness associated with this event indicates a very stupid person or a person who genuinely made a mistake and is making amends.
Finally, if he took your virginity, Liz, I can absolutely understand your anger. You're from a Catholic family as I understood it. Huge deal. But, I do not understand your narcissism. You're over 40 and you should have learned long ago that it isn't all about you. It never has been.
By the way, I'm investmentguru69.
ralph,
you've basically called liz a liar and accused her of leading beebe on, when even beebe himself never once made that accusation against her.
clearly, you are partially sympathetic to beebe and have a "blame the victim" attitude and, far worse, you have a "rapist enabler" attitude.
MARIO
To Ralph or Guru:
I have always been respectful of your posts. I do not owe you anything, much less a copy of the Police report. Why don't you call the Charlottesville Police and they will be happy to help you. You'll be able to read all the court testimony in my book.
Do not call it "date rape". Beebe was a stranger to me as were the other two. Total strangers.
Yes, I've received hard evidence that he has attacked others. That is neither here nor there, as he was charged in my rape and object sexual penetration. He pled guilty to aggravated sexual assault.
I wish I knew what else occured that night. One witness came forward and admitted to drugging the punch. The other two rapists took the Fifth and lawyered up. If you READ, I was given a green drink.
Also, what does my Catholic faith matter? I would find this horrific, no matter what faith the victim was.
You clearly don't understand sarcasm. I loathe that I am known for this. Curing cancer? Love to be known for that! But I am happy that I can raise my children to dream, to respect, to live life. The conversations of hatred toward victims have no place in my world. I survived both the initial violation and the renewed assault by Beebe reopening the terrible wounds. This blog has nothing to do with me and everything to do with guiding survivors to the light and outlining cases where the system has failed (or triumphed).
The minute someone opens his or her mouth publicly, they become fodder for controversy. That you equate underage drinking (encouraged by the Dean of Students at UVa who hosted keggers for men only each Friday night) in the same category of illegality as rape is stunning.
I assume you blame Imette St. Guillen, Natalee Holloway and the DeAnza rape victim for their fates. Your indication that the "whole story" will come out is interesting. Maybe you know the whole story. I'd like to know the realities, certainly and find it extraordinarily immoral that these men refuse to cooperate with Police so many years later.
I hope your wife/female children fare better. You should log onto Pierce Harlan's blog re: false accusers. You would enjoy that blog.
Mario,
My gut says that Liz is being less than forthright. When I find out how to get a copy of the court testimony and the police report(s), I may change my mind. My father was a judge for 20+ years and I listened to a lot of testimony during those years.
Ralph
Liz,
I would love to read both. I will send an email next week to Charlottesville police to find out the process for getting the police report and whatever court testimony is available. If anything is available from the UVa, I would love to read that as well.
If he attacked others, I don't think that's "neither here nor there." It adds credence to your story that he deserved a lot more than a short prison stay. But again, it sounds like innuendo to me since you mention it but don't appear interested in making sure other victims of Beebe receive justice. You decided to appoint yourself the victims rights advocate. You're already falling down on the job.
I'm most interested in this witness who drugged the punch. If and when I get access to the testimony, I will blog about what I find because the fact you don't even mention his name is very curious to me. You can't be charged with libel since he admitted it in open court according to what you've written on here. You were anxious to let Beebe rot in jail, but now you refer to the person who was an accessory to the crime as only "a witness". Very odd.
You're right about the Catholicism statement. I was painting with a broad brush because I knew Catholics in college who referred to rape as "unexpected pleasure" and others who would have said you were a slut because of what happened. But, I really can't say exactly how your Catholic upbringing framed the outcome of this case. I don't think it's irrelevant like you claim, but it may not be a significant piece of information either.
If sarcasm was your intent, then you're right I absolutely do not pick up on your sarcasm. More like narcissism in some posts, but in others a genuine desire to understand the wickedness in the human psyche. Your self-righteous tone reminds me a lot of Nancy Grace on CNN. I hope that you're a lot better than that. I pray that you are.
As far as underage drinking is concerned, you seem to be saying that it was okay because "everyone else was doing it." Bull. It is part of the reason you were raped. It was wrong for the university to condone it and it was wrong for you to participate in it. Yes, I did it, too, and I should have been ticketed for minor in possession. Just think how many fewer women would be as vulnerable as you were if drinking age laws had been enforced in that fraternity. If you're such a strong victim rights advocate, then I think you can't deny the validity of what I'm saying.
I don't know what happened with Holloway. It looks like Van der Sloot did something to her. It also looks like Natalee Holloway was engaging in risky behavior with boys she did not know. If we want to prevent more Holloways, then we can't depend on the courts to find every Van der Sloot. We have to tell girls that they hold some responsibility in protecting themselves from such creeps. Otherwise, we will never make a dent in the sexual assault problem.
Wow, did you actually bring my spouse/children into this discussion? That's pretty low. Talk about irrelevant to this discussion. *eyeroll*
Ralph, what if She was 22 in her Senior year of College and had 2 beers? OF AGE. Does that mean that someone could not have drugged her drink and she end up in just as helpless a situation?
It makes me extremely curious why you are so on a vendetta to prove this woman wrong when you don't even know her from a hole in the wall. What's it to you? The man was convicted- he admitted to raping her. HE IS THE ONE WHO SENT HER THE LETTER, SOUGHT HER OUT. She's the one who let it go and moved on.
Liz is a pillar in the survivor community. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Bebe attacked other people that reached out to Liz after hearing her story?
Liz was fortunate in that in the state of VA, there is no staute of limitations on felony crimes- including rape, so the police were able to go forward years later in going after him after he sent her the letter.
How do you know that the women who may have been allegedly attacked by Bebe that reached out to her were not living in the same states where the same laws applied where if they did come forward, were not as fortunate to have the statute on their side because it was too late?
Her investigation remains open. Why don't you just leave her alone and find something better to do with your time? Why is this so important to you? She's been through enough.
PS Ralph- I'd like to point out the fact that even if Bebe did allegedly attack other victims and Liz has knowledge of this because they may have told her or however she found out.... it is not UP TO HER to report their crimes. It has to come from them. She can speak out about her experience with them but coming forward is their responsibilty- NOT HERS, and even if they did come forward, what crimes he was or was not prosecuted with are not up to Liz's detemination. They are up to to judges, juries, and DA's. But then, I don't expect you to realize that. I mean, your father was a judge, right?
Thanks, guys - but this is a futile exercise. I don't need you to defend me, but I appreciate it so very much. Your kindness and grace is so evident and lovely.
People like Mr. Taite are invested in cases like this because they are victim-blamers. These are not conversations that matter to me or to the general public and survivor community. Of course, that the perpetrators were intoxicated doesn't seem to matter. I just had it coming to me. Drugged, gang-raped, left naked and bruised in a bloody sheet and tossed on a sofa. A confession, a Grand Jury, an indictment, a guilty plea, a prison sentence. Three years of having to listen to tools like this on blogs doubt a story where the perp even confesses in writing.
Hopefully, Mr. Taite gets his hard evidence and all of his paperwork. He seems awfully invested in this case and his comments are now spanning months on this post.
Now, you all enjoy your day. I'll be blogging about the Colorado case today. Lots of blame there for the victim too!
Liz,
I notice you did not include the comments I added from yesterday about why I was responding to this case.
So much for your pledge to allow comments as long as they do not include offensive language.
Mostly, I don't like to perpetrate hatred - not so much offensive language as illustrated by the letter than generated this post (which is awful, by the way and violates most states statutes regarding cyber bullying and stalking) as racist or anti-Semitic comments and the like. If you read the whole blog, I get saddened and frustrated by the crimes committed against people and have even used the "f" word.
Mr. Taite, I did not receive any such post and may have happily posted it. Please feel free to resend. That said, many of the blog commenters have asked me to stop giving you airtime.
Once again, I honestly don't know why you care so much. I also cannot respond to many of your comments as witness names in Grand Jury proceedings are protected as private. So do not take my not answering as an unwillingness to do so, but a legal necessity to maintain privacy.
Again, those outside of the case have no idea what went on. It would be wise to reserve judgement that is only based on media reports.
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